South Ribble election debate: councillors clash over claims of ‘greenbelt housebuilding’ and debt

You can watch the full debate in the video player above or read highlights from the event in the article below.

To be invited to take part, a party had to be contesting at least a third of all 23 South Ribble wards up for grabs at the polls. This year, the Conservatives are standing candidates in all wards, Labour in all but one, the Liberal Democrats in 18, the Green Party in four and the Alliance for Local Democracy and Freedom in three – and you can find local manifestos from all of the political groups here.

However, for the debate, local democracy reporter Paul Faulkner was joined by Cllr Paul Foster (Labour leader of South Ribble Borough Council), Cllr Karen Walton (Conservative opposition group leader) and Cllr David Howarth (Liberal Democrat group leader).

Here's some of what they had to say on the topics that came up for discussion…

HOW MANY NEW HOMES ARE TOO MANY?

A recent consultation on a new local plan for Central Lancashire - which, if adopted, would dictate development in the region for the next 15 years - suggested that South Ribble may have to build 6,750 homes in that time. Under the so-called “standard method” - the government's starting point for housing targets - the figure for the borough would be 2,865. But council planning officers say that the lower tally would not be deemed sound, because it fails to consider planned employment growth and past levels of housing delivery. The political parties have drawn up electoral battle lines over the issue.

KAREN WALTON

“I think it's 191…houses per year that we need, which is less than 3,000 houses over the 15 years of the local plan. The government has said that we need to keep to the standard method of calculating housing numbers. The Labour group signed up to…[what] equates to almost 7,000 houses - so there is a difference of quite a number of houses. Where are all these houses going to go?

"We know the government have set targets to build houses - and we will keep to those targets. [But] to think that we need to [build] over 4,000 more houses than we actually need to provide - because it's the Central Lancashire local plan and not South Ribble’s local plan - seems to me wrong.”

PAUL FOSTER

“We haven't signed up to anything - there's a fundamental, either a deliberate or [just] a lack of understanding from Karen here. All the council approved was to consult the local community on the needs for the next 15 years - and we presented to [residents], for consultation, private developers’ options for sites. It's not…the Labour group’s standards that we're working to, it's the government's.

"South Ribble is going through huge economic growth over the next 15 years with the cyber force [centre in Samlesbury] and [the] Cuerden [employment development]...and we are statutorily required to take that into consideration when we try and calculate the numbers of houses that may be needed. If Karen's group goes in with the [lower number of homes]... the inspector [who assesses the proposed local plan] would throw it out immediately.”

DAVID HOWARTH

“I'd like to take issue with some of the literature that [the Tories] have been circulating - I would love to know [at] which meetings…the Liberal Democrats, as they claim, voted to build 7,000 houses in the greenbelt. It is [a] completely wild [allegation]. While the figures are there within the [consultation] document, it doesn't mean we support building 7,000 houses and certainly not in the greenbelt - because that is not what is being suggested.

"There's a bit of a contradiction here as well. On the one hand, we're being told that we need all these new jobs and new opportunities - Samlesbury being one of them -...[but] where are those people supposed to live? Over 100 years ago, the likes of Rowntree’s and [Lever Brothers in] Port Sunlight were building houses next…[to] the jobs. Are we saying that we don't bring new jobs to the area - or [that] people have to commute in and completely contradict the climate emergency that we've declared?”

PAUL FOSTER

“I'd like to understand where the 7,000 homes in the greenbelt [are supposed to be] going… because I've not seen [anything about] 7,000 homes in the greenbelt anywhere within that [draft] local plan.”

KAREN WALTON

“Well, there are no brownfield sites left to build on in South Ribble…so where else will all these 7,000 houses be built unless it's on greenbelt land…valuable agricultural land? There are other local authorities…surrounding that cyber centre. Why do all the houses have to be built in South Ribble?”

IS THE BOROUGH GOING GREEN QUICKLY ENOUGH?

Will South Ribble be carbon neutral by 2030? That was the ambition the council set out almost four years ago - putting it 20 years ahead of the national target. But will it apply just to the authority itself or the entire district?

PAUL FOSTER

“If we don't hit that target…I'll take it on the chin, but we're going to do everything we possibly can to achieve [it]. We have delivered over 150,000 trees and we're going to keep planting. We’re decarbonising all our leisure centres with a £5.5m investment; we've got heat pumps being installed as we speak. That's a massive step forward…because the leisure centres were one of the biggest areas of carbon in the borough.

"The challenge we have with making the whole borough carbon neutral by 2030 is we'd have to re-route the M6…[but] how do you know that the majority of vehicles on the roads won't be electric by 2030? We do not know what the future holds.”

DAVID HOWARTH

“We do have a commitment to planting trees, what we don't have is a commitment to a net figure of how many are actually thriving and contributing to reducing carbon emissions. What we would like to see is not only a commitment to planting the trees, but…regular inspections to ensure that they are healthy and growing. Because you only have to go down John Horrocks Way [the Penwortham bypass] and you'd be hard pressed to find a tree that's probably still alive.”

KAREN WALTON

“It's exemplary to try and become carbon neutral by 2030 - and I think it was us that asked the question, was it the whole borough or was it the council's estate that will be carbon neutral by [then]? It's a great thing that [the leisure centres] are being decarbonised, but the money that's being used is from a government grant.

"[South Ribble’s] air quality action plan was actually brought in by me when I was a cabinet member in 2018 [and] I just feel as though [progress] is very slow at the moment. I'm very much into cross-party working for big issues that involve all the borough, but I do think that there seems to be a lot of talking and not a lot of action, especially regarding electric vehicle charging points.”

COUNCIL ‘DEBT’: RISK OR REWARD?

South Ribble is forecast to borrow £33m by 2025/26 to fund projects including a new “extra care” scheme, for older people, in Leyland. But the council has not yet borrowed a penny and may not have to seek the full estimated amount - leading to a pre-election row.

DAVID HOWARTH

“When you invest, you invest to have a return. One of the reasons we've been able to freeze the council tax for the last three years is because we had…much greater income from business rates. Liverpool Road [in Penwortham]...is thriving…and that means income to the council. So while you're looking at probably a £5m investment [to improve] that centre…we get the payback.

"And we've asked questions [as to whether] we are seriously going to be £40 million in debt - or whatever the figure is that's being bandied around by the Conservatives - and the [council’s chief finance officer] assures us we are certainly not.”

PAUL FOSTER

“[The Conservatives] have plastered all over leaflets saying that we are ‘debt ridden’, that we've got £40m worth of debt - and that is just categorically untrue. But I don't understand...how we're expected to invest [in the borough]…with no money.

"The extra care scheme - 75 apartments that we're going to build - [is] akin to taking a mortgage. Those residents that live there are then going to pay back [the money] . So the taxpayers in South Ribble aren't paying one pence towards that."

KAREN WALTON

“It's all very well for Paul to say that the investments will pay for themselves, but the buildings and whatever is being [done] has to be paid for initially - and the…liability benchmark, which we took some of our figures from, shows a projection of external debt and capital funding requirements…of almost £40m [which] won't be paid off until 2062.

"As for the extra care facilities…we would take a different view and look at…how we could provide the same service, but in a different way.”

THE FUTURE IS...CROSS-PARTY CO-OPERATION?

Following the last elections in South Ribble in 2019, Labour were the largest party, but did not have an overall majority. That result led to what is known as a “confidence and supply” agreement with the Liberal Democrats, under which the smaller party agreed to support Labour on an issue-by-issue basis. But would the Lib Dems do so again if the council continues to be hung after Thursday's poll? And is the way politics is done in South Ribble a good advert for local democracy?

DAVID HOWARTH

“We had an agreed programme, which we've implemented. But there are certain areas that we have had our concerns about; we have very carefully scrutinised the administration and, given the opportunity going forward, we'll continue to do so. I'm open to talking to anybody [about post-election arrangements].

"I do talk to Karen as well, I don’t just talk to Paul. [She and I] have worked very closely together on the scrutiny [committee], so to suggest that there is this Labour/Lib Dem love-in [and that] we never talk to the Conservatives, I think is probably not a fair reflection.”

PAUL FOSTER

“I'll happily say that I'm the leader of the council due to the supply and confidence agreement and the professionalism of David and his Lib Dem team. We've had to work closely together on some issues and we've had to debate them hard to get them through council at times. But David and I share similar values in that what we must do ultimately is do what's best for our local community.”

KAREN WALTON

“Like David said, we do work together - and I like the supply and confidence working arrangements. [On] scrutiny, we have worked together...and we do hold the administration to account. But I do think on some things there could have been more…[opportunity] to come to some [cross-party] agreements, rather than bringing [issues] to council [meetings] where sometimes the arguments can be a bit fraught, to put it mildly.”